Let's settle this once and for all: Is grilled brie and some fresh basil leaves art?

Schmoek's picture

EDIT: I'll try to introduce this topic more thoroughly because as Elmlea has rightfully pointed out, the whole thing didn't make too much sense in the first place. I'm sorry if any bad impression has come across as this wasn't the point so I'll start again:

My intend with this post is to try to show that the problems often discussed regarding video games and the art attribute could be resolved rather easily and that this isn’t a problem of the games industry in particular but a problem that has slowly evolved roughly since the middle ages and I'm afraid one we will not get rid of too soon.

There is a structurally enforced misconception of the term art that has been held in place for a couple of hundred years. Every now and then someone (usually an artist because noone else really cares that much) tries to clarify and gets either ignored or highly praised within the art community which is essentially part of the problem.

The really sad thing about it is that the ENTIRE problem is that of a simple definition:

The common believe is that art is a quality of a certain thing; That one can, given he/she is qualified, look at a thing and deduct wether or not it is art.

This is wrong. We have known that for a hundred years now.

Why is that a misconception? Because it ignores the relation of the viewer towards a thing in favour of an inherent quality of the thing itself – To put it in other words:

Wether or not something is art is not an attribute of a thing (a painting, music, game, etc.) but an attribute of your perception.

Say you look at a Rembrandt painting. If you see a painting that depicts a certain thing, see the colours, the mood etc. then it is NOT art in that it is NOT ART TO YOU because your perception of it doesn’t do anything unusual. It may still be masterfully done and a joy to look at but that’s it.

If you look at the same painting and suddenly start to feel something you dind’t expect, if the relationship between you and that painting exceeds your preconception (of the relationship of course) then it is art – but only to you.

We all know that this is true intuitively because we’d all say that art is something personal, that it cannot be defined (not even explained most of the time).

However it is defined. It has been defined by galleries, museums and collectors since the tryptichon arose in the middle-ages.

Why?

Because this leads to a lot of uncomfortable problems for a lot of rather wealthy people.

Because it means there is no artist. Nobody could claim to make art since anything can become art at any given time for any given person.

Because otherwise you can’t sell it.

This literally is the entire problem art has in the history of man (at least in the history of the post greek western european tradition) because any other problem art could have is completely pointless once the definition of art is not derived from this hollow foundation of profitability.

And there were people who tried to fight this:

You see what happened at the turn of the 19th century was that a certain french artists started to get the feeling that EXACTLY this is what’s wrong with the art field in general. He knew that he couldn’t just tell people (Because frankly the art field is dominated by wealthy galleries and museums who have build a rather fool proof network of defining, evaluating and selling art) so he tried something very clever:

He took completely random objects, signed them with an alias and submitted them to the Society of Independent Artists in New York in which he himself was a member and tried to declare them as art.

This man was Marcel Duchamp and his pieces were called the Ready-Mades which are now on par with the most praised and valuable pieces of art known to man.

He clearly failed miserably. And he knew he did. At the end of his „career“ (He’d certainly put that in quotation marks) he used to say that he’d rather shoot someone or be shot than ever make art again.

I’m really losing hope here. This problem has been elaborated in every detail for countless times but the ignorance it encounters every single time is so overwhelmingly structured and elaborated there seems to be no way to resolve it. With video games it is essentially the same thing.

Everybody keeps debating about wether or not the medium is even suited to be art but the entire question is so glaringly pointless I’m getting a headache from thinking about it’s implications.

So here’s the thing: We will not resolve this. As long as there are galleries, as long as there is an art market, video games will be tolerated at best (As are motion pictures). There’s no winning in this unless we get to the core of the problem.

axiomprime's picture

TL:DR but they can be art.

Fentonizer's picture

Blog, occasionally about games: As Is My Want

XBL: Fentonizer

Elmlea's picture

Oh brilliant, I must have missed the bit in the intro to this forum where it said it was a dumping ground for other peoples' blog posts.

Here's a clue. If I was interested in your blog, I'd have gone to find it, or I'd have stumbled across it as I meander around the internet. You don't have to post it, virtually without qualification, on a forum to try and drum up traffic.

And don't come out with the bullshit "I just wanted to start a discussion" stuff either. Blog posts by their very nature are not the same introduction to a discussion as a forum topic. Your piece there doesn't even ask any questions. It doesn't engender debate. What the hell am I meant to add to that? Where are the questions? What do you actually want me to say?

Nope, I call shit on this. This is you wanting to popularise your blog that we're not interested in, not you wanting to contribute to any sort of discussion here. Also, we've got a fucking Are Games Art? thread on page 5! You know there's a blog/opinion section of this site, or at least there used to be? Go post there.

This is a discussion forum, not a crap-writing-depository. You're as bad as the crap band who want us to do something I don't understand because of Ubisoft or the shit iOS game manufacturers who think we want to read adverts. This is an advert. Take it away.

Elmlea's picture

Also, I just read the terms and conditions. Future now own your blog post and can do whatever they like with it, and reserve the right to monetize the link to your blog. I think you work for Future as a slave now.

Fentonizer's picture

I have posted stuff on here which I also put on my blog (well, one topic, that got ignored).

I mean, if you want to start a discussion about your thoughts on a topic, then I don't see the harm in posting it to a place where lots of other people who share your hobby congregate.

But can we stop this "Are games art?" stuff. It's boring. It was always boring. It will always be boring. It is a non-issue.

Blog, occasionally about games: As Is My Want

XBL: Fentonizer

Schmoek's picture

I didn't intend to advertise anything I'm sorry if this impression came across - My hope was to find a forum where the ideas I tried to show could be discussed (As is not the case with most gaming related sites) and definitely not to anger anyone.

I'll delete it (Although i can't find the option just now, if you know where that's located could you tell me please?)

Quote:
But can we stop this "Are games art?" stuff. It's boring. It was always boring. It will always be boring. It is a non-issue.


That is exactly the point of the post. I'm triying to elaborate why it's a non-issue.

Tempy's picture

Elm, stop being awesome.

Shmoe, most of us have been around these parts for around 5 years now, I personally couldn't care less if Games were coded messages from future utopian societies or if they were lowest common denominator rubbish.

I'll continue to take them on the merits they present to me and ignore all such 'discussions' about them as they always tend to be self publicising, navel gazing psuedo intellectual guff.

No offense meant of course, I just don't see why people care.

XBL: Tempestora
Kow's picture

Shmuck? Yeah, right...

Live/PSN/Steam - Kowdown
Schmoek's picture

Kow wrote:
Shumck? Yeah, right...


Not too heavy on the literal side are we?

Elmlea's picture

Fentonizer wrote:
I have posted stuff on here which I also put on my blog (well, one topic, that got ignored).

I mean, if you want to start a discussion about your thoughts on a topic, then I don't see the harm in posting it to a place where lots of other people who share your hobby congregate.


That's fine. You can post your opinion and ask us for ours. You can post a dissection of the subject and ask what we think. You can post a paragraph or 2 and just put "discuss" if you want us to pick apart what you've said.

However, what's lazy as hell and just frankly a bit rude is to start with a link to your blog and then just copy and paste wholesale a post from it. I don't want to read your blog; I'll enter a discussion centred around something you thought about when writing your blog, but if I want to comment on a blog post, I'll find your blog and do it there.

Even a link to a blog post is more tenable if you actually write a post here explaining why you want us to read it and what discussion you want out of it. Just posting an cut out from your blog is lazy self-promotion at best.

Brooks's picture

My back itches.

Brooks's picture

I'm really serious.

Kow's picture

Schmoek wrote:
Kow wrote:Shumck? Yeah, right...

Not too heavy on the literal side are we?


Tut tut, morning typo. You, however, are a forever moron.

Live/PSN/Steam - Kowdown
Elmlea's picture

Schmoek wrote:
I didn't intend to advertise anything I'm sorry if this impression came across - My hope was to find a forum where the ideas I tried to show could be discussed (As is not the case with most gaming related sites) and definitely not to anger anyone.

I'll delete it (Although i can't find the option just now, if you know where that's located could you tell me please?)


Well perhaps you could actually try rehashing your thoughts on the subject and posting in the already existing 200 post long Are Games Art? thread on the forum? You know, read it (like you're meant to do on a forum), think about how your opinions match or disagree, and then make your point there? Like it's a discussion?

A blog post is you on transmit, and I don't care what you have to say if you're just standing on your virtual soapbox shouting. A forum post is part of a conversation, and I do care what your opinion is on innumerable video game matters if you post it as such.

Kow's picture

You mean the Are Games Art thread that was started as a joke because we all hate the topic?

Live/PSN/Steam - Kowdown
Tempy's picture

FOX 3 ARMED

XBL: Tempestora
Schmoek's picture

Elmlea wrote:
Fentonizer wrote:I have posted stuff on here which I also put on my blog (well, one topic, that got ignored).

I mean, if you want to start a discussion about your thoughts on a topic, then I don't see the harm in posting it to a place where lots of other people who share your hobby congregate.

That's fine. You can post your opinion and ask us for ours. You can post a dissection of the subject and ask what we think. You can post a paragraph or 2 and just put "discuss" if you want us to pick apart what you've said.

However, what's lazy as hell and just frankly a bit rude is to start with a link to your blog and then just copy and paste wholesale a post from it. I don't want to read your blog; I'll enter a discussion centred around something you thought about when writing your blog, but if I want to comment on a blog post, I'll find your blog and do it there.

Even a link to a blog post is more tenable if you actually write a post here explaining why you want us to read it and what discussion you want out of it. Just posting an cut out from your blog is lazy self-promotion at best.

´
I'm sorry for that (I removed the link acouple of minutes ago). I initially intended not to spam the forum with the entire post (Mostly because the formatting was off and I was too lazy to do it again), that's why I put the link up there, reconsidered and forgot I put it there in the first place - I hope the impression is more accurate now and I'd like to apologize for the mistake.

g.man's picture

Schmoek wrote:
My hope was to find a forum where the ideas I tried to show could be discussed (As is not the case with most gaming related sites) and definitely not to anger anyone.

Hello new chap. You're perfectly welcome to post stuff here, but bear in mind this is a long established and fairly tight-knit community. Consequently topics such as "Are Games Art" have been discussed until we're all blue in the face. Mostly we just talk about important things like sandwich fillings now.
Feel free to stick around and join in, just be aware that while this forum appears fairly new, virtually all of the posters here have migrated from the old EDGE forum, and the pimping of blog pieces by new people is not something that's ever been deemed acceptable by the vocal majority.

regards

g.man

XBox Live & PSN: gman808     

We're moving house. Come with g if you want to live...

http://www.thebearandbadger.co.uk

 

Brooks's picture

Is "schmoek" the only true counter-incantation to "plornt"

Elmlea's picture

Kow wrote:
You mean the Are Games Art thread that was started as a joke because we all hate the topic?


Yes, that one. The fact that he didn't start with even mentioning it shows that he's not interested in any discussion on this forum, he just wants to post his blog.

djchump's picture

@Schmoek: Don't cross post your shitty blog.
Use the forum search.

g.man's picture

djchump wrote:

Use the forum search,

Hahahahaha.

XBox Live & PSN: gman808     

We're moving house. Come with g if you want to live...

http://www.thebearandbadger.co.uk

 

Kow's picture

When you find it, you can join in.

Live/PSN/Steam - Kowdown
Tempy's picture

G doesn't know about the new forum search function olol

XBL: Tempestora
Sasukekun's picture

Ok.
Now that's out of our system(s), let's not start the usual character assassination stuff, and scare the new guy off.
While yes, he did pimp his blog, he has since removed the link and wants to invoke discussion. Yeah, we've had this topic before, so, lets just ignore it. That way he knows he's done wrong, and can continue to post here without fear of reprisal.

Constantly shouting until these guys go away isn't going to expand our little community at all is it?

Sometimes this place feels more like the village out of Hot Fuzz than a discussion forum.

PSN: Sasukekun

Currently trying to play: FIFA 12, Virtua Tennis 4, Uncharted 3 MP, Portal 2, Naruto: UNS2, Nier, Ico & SotC HD, Child of Eden, House of the Dead: Overkill EC, Alpha Protocol.

Schmoek's picture

Quote:

Hello new chap. You're perfectly welcome to post stuff here, but bear in mind this is a long established and fairly tight-knit community. Consequently topics such as "Are Games Art" have been discussed until we're all blue in the face. Mostly we just talk about important things like sandwich fillings now.
Feel free to stick around and join in, just be aware that while this forum appears fairly new, virtually all of the posters here have migrated from the old EDGE forum, and the pimping of blog pieces by new people is not something that's ever been deemed acceptable by the vocal majority.

regards

g.man


Thanks for the post, I've edited the article in a manner I hope that's sufficient to start a discussion. I tried to delete the entire post in order to move it just now, but I can't find the option in the edit panel.

Brooks's picture

Bagsy no

Click to reveal spoiler
.

djchump's picture

g.man wrote:
djchump wrote:
Use the forum search,

Hahahahaha.

d'oh!
Dammit, no search yet on nuforum?! srsly?!

:-(

my bad.

Tempy's picture

Sas your avatar is incredibly annoying.

XBL: Tempestora
Sasukekun's picture

Couldn't find a pic of it.
This one will do


Coincidentily Brooks, I found this while looking for it

PSN: Sasukekun

Currently trying to play: FIFA 12, Virtua Tennis 4, Uncharted 3 MP, Portal 2, Naruto: UNS2, Nier, Ico & SotC HD, Child of Eden, House of the Dead: Overkill EC, Alpha Protocol.