MAGAZINE

Community Games: Creation Myths

Edge Staff's picture

By Edge Staff

May 25, 2009

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The reaction to this among the XNA community fell into roughly two camps. The first is exemplified by developer Running Pixel, behind Bricks4Ever and Crystal Crush: ‘I’m really disappointed. With two games on the service, and one on the top for three weeks we did... not enough to recoup nothing [sic], there’s no business here’. Both Running Pixel games are, in the context of the service, polished efforts – but they’re also working within the doggedly explored realms of the match-three and bat-and-ball genres.

The alternative reaction came from developers such as Anchorcast, the maker of below-par platformer A Fading Melody, who admitted that ‘it won’t pay my bills, but it’s still a nice chunk of change that will help pay my bills, and this is from less than a week at around ninth place on the charts. I’m cool with that [and] if you were expecting this to be more than a hobby/secondary income for most developers, you probably had your hopes too high’.


Word Soup, a word-based puzzle game

There’s the rub. A number of developers do expect CG to be a business rather than a secondary income, and the fear is that there’s a flood of novelty apps in the service’s future. The developers of CarneyVale Showtime didn’t respond to an interview request, while the game’s sales have been kept private, and it’s not hard to see why: it was developed over a period of just under five months by a team of seven people. CarneyVale Showtime is a great game, and perhaps the highlight of the service thus far, but it seems incredibly unlikely it’s yet covered its development costs. Bemoaning this fate is natural, but could it have been different? Is it right to expect the CG channel to support professional creators, or just wrongheaded? Comparing two of the more professional efforts and their relative successes shows how, money’ and an abundance of stories which service, and one on the top for three weeks with the right product, CG certainly can support a small business. Word Soup, a puzzle game, has made over $32,000 (£22,000), while Weapon Of Choice, a side-scrolling shooter, hasn’t recouped development costs. The real difference between Word Soup and Weapon Of Choice? The former’s simply a better example of its genre, and its genre is better suited to the channel. Word Soup has high production values, works exactly as you would expect it to, costs 400 points and doesn’t have an obvious competitor on XBLA. Weapon Of Choice is a garish and clunky shooter with counter-intuitive controls and several poorly thought-out mechanics, sells for 400 points, and has XBLA competition from the likes of Super Contra, which not only has the name recognition and nostalgia factor, but is fundamentally a better game and sells for the same price. This isn’t rocket science.

There’s a more general point here concerning the types of games CG can support. Side-scrolling shooters, twin-stick shooters, beat ’em ups, clones of popular genres and particular types of puzzlers are already over-represented on XBLA, and with some of the finest examples of those genres. Austin points out that “XBLA was launched with the 360, and even though we had a great launch line-up, it was still only competing against 20 retail titles. Now there are hundreds and hundreds of retail games, hundreds of XBLA games, so CG is in a place where the Xbox consumer has tons of content choices – CG is in a much tougher competitive situation than XBLA was at launch.” Or, in other words, what’s the point in CG trying to compete with XBLA games? “Because Groov’s a dual-stick shooter I immediately think of Geometry Wars,” says developer Julian Kantor, “so I’m thinking it’s not going to sell for 800, but between 400 and 200. And is it as good as the original Geometry Wars: Retro Evolved which you can get for 400 points? I was like, ‘Nah’. As a gamer, I think the gameplay in Geometry Wars is way better, even though the point of Groov isn’t necessarily to go up against that. I approached making it differently, as a kind of musical experience, and I’d originally categorised it as a music game which I changed.” This is the key difference between a game like Biology Battle and Groov: the former developed by a full team, confronting Geometry Wars head on, and priced at 800 points; the latter developed by one man, a distinctive twist on the dual-stick shooter, and priced at 200 points.


Julian Kantor's Groov

At least Biology Battle’s a decent enough game. We shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that, in general terms, many of these poor-selling games don’t deserve sales success. Even if most aren’t awful, they’re often presented as such, with poor promo art, unconvincing sales blurb and insipid titles. Presented with what seems to be a badly organised collection of second-rate clones, the average browser’s first impression of the service can’t help but be a negative one. How many XNA developers follow Microsoft’s guidelines for what a player expects? How many games have easy-to-figure-out controls and rules during the trial period? How many have clear in-game visuals? How many were promoted at all? How many are even appropriately priced? Having played a great deal of CGs during the production of this article, our answer to each question is: almost none.

The responsibility is clearly on CG developers themselves to learn from the first six months. That doesn’t mean there isn’t room for improvement from Microsoft. Why, in particular, has CG disappeared from the NXE ‘Spotlight’ section? Why have so few titles been highlighted since launch? “When the NXE first launched there was a link to CG right there,” says Kantor, “but since then they’ve made it less prominent. I think Microsoft almost tries too hard to make everything equal – it’s like they’re almost scared to call out specific games for being really good. They did it with CarneyVale Showtime but it had already won a contest so I guess maybe they felt safe to promote it?”

Rob_Jackson's picture

the biggest problem MS face with this is pricing. The price tags on some of these games should be submitted into a joke of the year contest. Compare this with the iphones app store, which is doing the same thing, with products either free or $1.

dreamhunk's picture

Here is link belongs here I found it today. Here is the reason pc gaming will never die.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23748

the only thing that will surpass pc gaming is a holodeck which may not happen for a veryl ong time.

ArronC07's picture

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Indrema's picture

I read the article. It was good.

- it discusses how PC gaming is all about people who want to make games, practice on the PC. Here, they can prove whether they are good enough to move up to the next level - Consoles. The article, with the exception of MMO's, makes PC gaming sound like college, & consoles sound like The job you get when you're good enough.

I thought the most interesting part was when the stated that the reason gamers like consoles more than PC's; is the same reason future developers like PC's better. For each side's perspective, it is exponentially easier to get into it, & just have it work. It was very oxymoronic - Please Dreamhunk, don't quote me on that. I can't imagine how many words you could make out of oxymoronic

StealthBadger's picture

"you want take a good look pircay then take a good look at the wii and dsi. Not even pc gaming pircay number goes into billions!"

Could this be due to the fact that nobody wants to play billions of PC games? Let's analyze the figures shall we?

Recent Games worth playing on the PC: 1 (empire total war)
Global Population: ~13 billion?

Therefore, for PC pircay to reach into the billions, you'd need 1/13 of the global population to not only be playing a gaming PC, but also to be engaging in software pircay (by far the worst kind of pircay!). This clearly isn't feasable, so PC software pircay will never reach the level of Wii pircay. It's simple maths, really.

nolim's picture

I don't really think it's worth the effort for pirates to mass produce copies of PC games when either a quick visit to GameCopyWorld or download from Pirate bay makes it easy enough for your average PC user to copy anything they want.

Raul23's picture

This article's pretty ridiculous--moral of the story is, if you're serious about independent development, stay far away from CG. If you're not serious, then go nuts.

Anyone that actually doesn't want to be homeless or starve to death, or, hey, maybe even do something crazy like raise a family, can stick with the iPhone until they get to the point where they can afford to compete on XBLA, WiiWare, and PSN.

nolim's picture

Given that the distribution channel is the same for CG and XBLA it is surely only a matter of time before the channel produces a big hit, if Word Soup can earn $32000 in four months then i can only imagine that RC AirSim, which has been at the top of the CG chart for months, has made much more money. As awareness of Community Games grows so will the sales figures and when you have 18 million potential customers, and who knows how many would be developers given the tools they need, it's nothing but inevitable.

dreamhunk's picture

please there has been alot of companies born because of pc gaming un like console gaming where companies gone bankuprt. For exmple Cd project,Crytek,those stalker clear skies game devs.

Like I said pc gaming is on fire these days. You want to play with the best you need to be one of the best. I hear a game called killing floor is doing well making money.

ArronC07's picture

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dreamhunk's picture

consoles are still a joke for game genres. You can't play TBS,murcer mistery,space sims,sims,pin ball,tbsrpg, ocean etc on them.

NickgamertagO1's picture

You're right, those games all sound so compelling over what I'm currently playing that I'll toss my two 360s as soon as I get home. murcer mistery is the one that really caught my attention.

dreamhunk's picture

hehe I mean murder mistery for exmaple, by the way don't kid your self some of these genes have huge followings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBFH1hr3e64

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2BYxSivFZE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqY9mDOw-UI

the list of space sims on the pc is huge it's not main stream. Even better is the space sim mmo's like eve is hot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jOJR5Xauf0

don't even get me started I can start showing genres and games that are popular and are not main steam on consoles, so they say. here check what analysis had to say about x3

http://gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23560

NickgamertagO1's picture

You must just be aware of these popular genres that most are not even aware of. I visit PC gaming sites and I really don't hear too much on these games/genres you speak of. It must be more of an underground thing, or popular with a non-traditional gaming community as I haven't heard anything about most of these genres you speak of. If they are really that popular and not some underground thing or niche, I think we'd have heard more about it by now. I don't claim to know all that's popular in PC gaming, but it's a hard pill to swallow that these types of games are really that popular or do that well when I never hear about any of them. Either way, glad they're important to you. I'm fine without them though, so really, to each his own.

dreamhunk's picture

they are not known to console gamers because they don't well on consoles. It's just like rts games made for the pc. empire total war out sold killzone 2. FPS have always been popular on the pc. Console gamers didn't get to play fps up until golden eye.

NickgamertagO1's picture

Well, according to NPD's top 20, most of those genres don't do well on PC either. RTSs are huge on PCs, simulation games, and MMOs. That's about it for the PC market in terms of successful genres right now. Many games outsold KZ2 that doesn't mean much. Shit, a console RTS (Halo Wars) outsold KZ2 so that shoots down your point twice (that console RTSs don't sell, and that KZ2 is a good comparison). True about Golden Eye, but before that time consoles weren't really equipped with the hardware capabilities to even run an FPS in 3D.

dreamhunk's picture

yea well these days NDP is a joke and retail is going the way of dodo bird. You can blame micro soft and gamestop for that :)

on one more thing NDP and people like NDP should think about real hard . The world doesn't play on consoles they play on the pc.

NickgamertagO1's picture

I do agree with you that digital distribution is growing and may ultimately take over down the line but it's still rather in its infancy (even on PCs unless you're talkin small flash type-games, puzzlers, casual games, etc...) and really wouldn't make much of an impact on sales to really make a difference on the charts.

And one word of advice; Credibility is judged by multiple things and one of them is intelligence. When you spell many things wrong and consistently don’t use proper punctuation or any at all it really hurts your credibility. You come off as a PC fanboy foaming at the mouth so excited to throw out the next link you’ve scrambled to find that you don’t take to time to construct anything more than fragmented sentences with multiple spelling errors. People are going to take what you say less serious than they would if your posts showed some intelligence. I’m not saying you don’t have any, I’m just saying your posts make it look as though you don’t and your arguments will suffer and be far less compelling because of it.

Indrema's picture

Man, these guys are sucking since they don't have GTA-IV to fall back on this year. Apparently, this console game sold so much that even the 9 million copies Civilization sold wasn't enough to keep them ahead.

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/05/26/take-two-reveals-declining-q2-financia...

- I guess you should have made another Xbox games, guys.

dreamhunk's picture

Here is an exmpale real game devs that makes money. They are good at what they do ;) Notice this game is TBS not RTS, not a FPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.vg247.com/2009/05/26/take-two-financials-civilization-franchi...

Which format is your priority in Europe? You have these big Xbox 360 titles such as Mass Effect, but they don't see release on the PC until six months after the console release. Why don't you go for a simulataneous treatment on these titles?

On a global scale the Windows Vista business is as important as our Xbox 360 business. But in Germany for example, we want more gamers to buy our Xbox 360.

If we launch a game that is on 360 and PC simultaneously, we basically shoot ourselves in the foot by allowing

the German

market to choose to play the PC version

– because they are more likely to buy that than spend their money on the Xbox 360.

On a global scale the PC is very relevant to us. And I would say that 90 per cent of the games that are pitched to us are on console. We're strongly perceived as a console publisher because we're the first-party publisher even though the Windows operating system is equally important to us. If we launched a Halo game on PC and 360 in Germany simultaneously, 80 per cent of sales would be on the PC. So we need to pick and choose our formats."Qoute from this article

http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/39622/Microsoft-Explain-PC-Game-Releas...

Indrema's picture

Dude! Don't knock Murcer Mystery..it's Ausum! I totally know how you feel. I pictched my NES 20 years when I discovered I couldn't play Rabbit Algebra.

God, I get so sick of developers comparing this to the iPhone. Do they REALLY think "fart apps" & "flick-my-zippo" are going to be any fun on 46" LED TV with 7.1 sound. You'd think the platform would explain itself.

Dreamhunk, I have to know. Why do you hate consoles so much. I haven't owned one in almost a decade, but I don't hate them. Did you, like, buy 2 32x's - only to find out that you couldn't "stack-em" for 64 bits of power or something? Blast-Processing let you down?

I almost hate to ask. You're posts ate half the reason I visit this site.

Raul23's picture

Do they REALLY think "fart apps" & "flick-my-zippo" are going to be any fun on 46" LED TV with 7.1 sound. You'd think the platform would explain itself.

I think they think that if they make a good game then it should be met with success and that, since both the iPhone and CG are designed solely with the intention of lowering the barrier to entry, then comparing the two platforms is entirely reasonable.

dreamhunk's picture

I have played must console games they are junk and give pc gaming a bad name. The question I am going to ask you do you want to play real games or not? These days the whole Industry is about hardware and not games! I will go so far as to say E3 is a joke.

Indrema's picture

Good enough for me; I'm officially on board.

Nickgamertag01, yo can go f**k yourself & call me when you can play Dream Wedding, Stalin VS. Martians, and Second Life on your precious Sh!tbox.

dreamhunk's picture

I hear Stalin VS. Martians was a bad game just like spartain on consoles was a bad game. If I had the time I would sit you down and show you some real games. I would show you what gaming is all about. Why pc gamers love pc gaming over consoles. pc gaming has along history people don't know about.

http://vator.tv/news/show/2009-04-10-raptr-founder-on-the-evolution-of-g...
http://news.gotgame.com/gaming-popularization-due-to-internet-revolution...

I am sure if it wasn't for debates with pc gamers alot of people wouldn't have known about webbased games,free games,modders,MMO'S and indie game devs.

NickgamertagO1's picture

Murcer mistery is my favorite gene now, I've already made the transition. micro soft is losing trillions every day on consoles and PC is smashing consoles into the ground. (Isn't that a bit of a oxymoron though? As MS' software is used in the vast majority of PCs in the entire world, how could PC be doing so well and MS do so bad at the same time???). Sorry, had to get out of character for that one.

"Good enough for me; I'm officially on board."

Had me literally laughing out loud out work.

dreamhunk's picture

yea well consoles Industry is on a decline right now and pc gaming is hot in a ression. Yea micro soft is a joke when comes to pc gming enough said right there! this what they had to say

http://www.newkerala.com/news/?c=120&a=1061

pc gaming is huge for a reason and it doesn't need advertising too make it popular. There is a reason will wright and blizzard don't make console games. In fact all the best game ever don't like making console games. The best game devs on pc make alot more on the pc than consoles.

NickgamertagO1's picture

Dream, you would believe that you know quite a bit about pc vs consoles but you would be wrong. Since the xbox 1 came out and basically was a PC in the form of a console (using off the shelves PC components) PC devs migrated to consoles (some doing both PC/consoles, some doing just consoles) because the architecture was so similar. Many PC-only games made their way over to consoles and have stayed. There's plenty of money to be made on consoles and companies are currently making a lot of money on consoles. Some better than others, but the ones that really do well are typcially the ones that are releasing high quality games. I'm started to tire of your constant baseless claims against console gaming (I don't care how many links you put up per post).

There's money to be made on PC and consoles, but the market for them is quite different. Publishers/Developers can thrive on both. It's ludacris to believe developers on consoles are all dying off due to how bad consoles are doing and how bad their games are according to you (it has more to do with the reCEssion and poor games than anything else IMO). The landscape of consoles are changing and developers are doing their best to transition into this new and expensive generation and I think most of them are doing a fine damn job considering the circumstances.

edit: to name just a few games/devs that migrated to consoles: Epic, Lionhead, Bizzare (I think they handled metropolis street racer which turned into Project Gotham). Unreal Tournament was for long time PC only, that game came to consoles. Doom, Quake, etc. And most of these games and devs have done very well (Gears, Fable ring a bell?).

dreamhunk's picture

Epic games is the has beens on the pc gaming world. In fact they are so good they don't care about their fans that made them. You want to know who started the whole garabge about pc gaming pircay and pc gaming in tatters all micro softs game devs like epic games famous billy cliff. Lionhead peter what ever his name is.

it's time that share holders be informed where the real money is at! Where their invest dallors shouldgo. I am sure they are starting find out just the tip of the ice berg. I mean EA would have been a sinking ship if it wasn''t for pc gaming in this ression. THQ would have went under if it wasn't dawn of war.

I say bring it if you want to debate with me. Oh one more thing pc gamers never ever care about console gamers until one day the media starting saying pc gaming was dead, until gamesptop started treating us like dirt. Until DRM started showing up in our games. Games devs started trashing out games.

we pc gamers can prove pc gaming makes more money than consoles!!! we pc gamers can prove how powerful our systems are. We pc gamers can prove why our system is more important. we pc gamers can prove that pc gaming is not in tatters.

lionhead company makes joke games. last time I checked Midway has gone bankuprt with UT3 as major flop I wonder why?

what the must money console game devs make what 5 mill tops. well real game devs on the pc make like 16 mill, 5 million, 9 million there games are so good it is still being sold to this day.

then there is mmo's that make so much money it's in the billions. while consoles lose billlions. yea pc gaming is hot in a ression and yea them console game devs losing hand over fist. Some of them is going bakuprt.

Indrema's picture

I think you're going to have to prove it. DRM's are in PC's because....I guess PC gamers must steal. It's our own fault - if we're all part of this army. And speaking of that - "Lionhead Peter", one of the best PC developers ever, stated that if piracy didn't cool on his games, publishers were going to force him out of PC's. He's not his own boss. He has to do what his "shareholders" say.

Why are you down on Epic? They practically made indie content possible on PC's. Hard on fans? How many other companies release a full editor with their games & says, "I bet you can do better"? One of Blizzard's biggest games is Guitar Hero. Isn't that, like, the incarnate of moronic console games?

MMO's don't help the industry, the hurt it. 4 - 5 companies take, billions - as you pointed out, leaving neither the money nor the time for PC gamers to support anything else. That is why console gaming is popular. You don't have the MMO gorilla to contend with. Lastly, what's your beef with Microsoft? It's where you play all your games! Unless you're a big Cedega-man.

dreamhunk's picture

lions heads games are junk, the last good game he has made was populas that is it. Epic games and lionhead are has beens in the real gaming world. One more thing real game devs respect their fan base, not kill it. One thing you want to debate pircay! lets talk about pircay on consoles too. Don't even get me started. You want to know who started this whole junk with pc gaming in tatters and pc gaming pircay micro softs game devs epic games and lionhead peter!!!!

you want take a good look pircay then take a good look at the wii and dsi. Not even pc gaming pircay number goes into billions!

http://news.softpedia.com/news/1-Billion-Dollars-Worth-Pirated-DS-Games-...

this article was made in 2007 I am sure those numbers are much higher! pirates don't make money on pc games like do on console games. I am sure where money is factor pircay on consoles is driven alot more too.

It's not my fault pc games get played alot more than consoles. Mmo's are great alot fun too, there is a reason they are sooo popular.

Indrema's picture

How did Lionhead "kill" their fanbase? In Black&White, you realize weren't online, right? Those "people" were your subjects in the game. They weren't real. You're supposed to throw them around.

Piracy isn't graded "on the curve.". Xbox & PS3 games are filled with DRM. The DSi has NO copy protection, & the Wii uses, simply, a non-PC file format - pretty easy to crack. If these consoles are the worst for piracy, as you claim, & they happen to be the ONLY active gaming platforms without DRM. Then it must work somewhat.

I hate DRM, a lot, but if a publisher looks at the same numbers you do; well, it doesn't make a good case against it. If there's considerable piracy, there will be copy protection. Whether it's first, third, or ninth on the "Most Pirated" list makes no difference.

quietIdentity's picture

I think it's rich how people complain about the service because they don't recoup their dev costs. Maybe they should develop something for XBLA if they want to make money, it seems that CG should be for interesting little indie games and giving people who don't have the background to develop commercial games for console a platform to play around on. Save the get rich quick schemes for IPhone. Not that there's anything wrong with getting a team together and making something but I think it's stupid to expect money out of it, developers should be aware that consumers will go with a game on XBLA before going with a CG game purely because you know that the screening process for XBLA ensures that what you buy is of a reasonable standard.

nolim's picture

While it's still early days and we have yet to see CG flourish, this has to be the best thing to happen to gaming in years, I only hope that Nintendo and Sony follow suit, though i suppose Microsoft have a huge advantage in the form of the free visual studio express downloads, the use of a great language like c#, and an operating system that is installed on most peoples PCs. Lets face it, what gamer hasn't, at one time or another, dreamed of creating their own console game, it almost seems weird that we've never had the opportunity before.

Wittus's picture

Yeah, great. Whee. Yabadoo.

Cutting down on the sarcasm a bit, I'd rather sooner hear from Microsoft, when (if?!) they are going to launch this service (and the whole movie service thingy as well, now I'm at it) in the apparently medieval place of Denmark, where I have the misfortune to live (in this respect).

It's oh so nice to hear about all the kinds of great things my Xbox 360 is capable of - if you live in the US. Pull out the proverbial finger of the very real arse, Microsoft, and release the flow. We'll sort out the chunks, no sweat, if you just give us the chance.