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Microsoft Accused of Ignoring Scratched Disc Problems
A document obtained from a motion seeking to take Microsoft to court alleged that the platform holder was fully aware that the Xbox 360 could scratch game discs beyond repair. It adds that Microsoft knew of the issue before the console was released, and that the firm did not move to address the hardware fault.
Plaintiffs in the US District Court case are seeking class-action status on behalf of all those who bought Xbox 360s. They allege that, when the 360 is spinning a game disc, even the slightest nudge of the console can lead to irreparable damage to the media.
Information from motion, which hopes to take Microsoft to a Civil Court over the allegations, is unsealed and publicly available in one document. It is this document which quotes internal Microsoft staff admitting that the 360’s tendency to scratch discs in certain situations was known months before the console’s worldwide launch.
The document quotes Hiroo Umeno, a Microsoft program manager, who says that “this is ... information that we as a team, optical disc drive team, knew about. When we first discovered the problem in September or October [2005], when we got a first report of disc movement, we knew this is what's causing the problem."
As the motion states, Microsoft then took a team of engineers to sample the console in stores across the US as it was being released to “investigate complaints that the Xbox 360 was routinely scratching discs during demonstrations.” The team confirmed that a nudge or tilt to the console would collide the disc with the console’s optical pick-up, thus leaving damaging scars on the media.
The motion then alleges that Microsoft then considered three options to fix the problem to the console. One was to increase the magnetic field of the disc holder, another was to slow the disc drive’s 7,500 RPM speed, another was to install small bumpers.
Microsoft eventually rejected all these ideas, the motion states. The magnetic field would have interfered with the disc tray open/close switch, whereas slowing the disc’s drive speed would have slowed loading times, and bumpers would have cost the company up to $75m.
Instead, Microsoft operated a disc replacement scheme for its own published software (costing consumers $20 each), and included a warning message on the game manual and to the disc drive: “Remove discs before moving the console or tilting it between the horizontal and vertical positions.” The motion states that Microsoft employees suggested in an internal e-mail that the warning was insufficient.
Microsoft has received more than 55,000 complaints about scratched discs as of April this year.
The documentation can be read in full (via a large pdf) here.
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its the gyroscopic effect of something spinning at 7500rpm, the disk spinning at that speed will quite forcefully resist having its orientation changed, as you tilt the console it will be forced up agaist anythng in its way, laser heads, sides of tray, and even foam buffers would cause scratching at this force and speed.
when its not spinning it shouldnt be a problem,
as for which is the best hardware i'll leave that to the experts
as for which is the best games console then its quite clear and if you have dismissed 360 for whatever reason then you have missed the best gaming experiences of this console generation.
That is a rather subjective comment. Not everyone has the same taste in games. I for instance do not like FPS games that are popular on the 360. There are very few games on the 360 that I would want to play.
You cannot generalize such a thing. Not everyone enjoys the same games and so they will have a different idea of which console is best for their gaming needs and the will make that decision for varying reasons.
theres not so many 360 FPS exclusives. halo, ehh thats about it, ok maybe L4D recently, and i wouldnt go mad over missing halo, but If you are really serious about gaming then you shouldnt miss (exclusives only), crackdown (better than gta4), fable 2(stunning), nuts and bolts(best 360 game), shadowrun(best mp game since q3a), dead rising(frustratimg but awsome fun), come for those classics then stay for ace com 6, ninja g 2, mass effect (didnt grab me but a lot of friends thought it was the dogs) . this is my humble opinion. i have a ps3 under the tree with lbp and drakes f, so soon i will see how the other third have been living.
actually ive just noticed that most of these games are published my msoft, damn i have to take my hat off to them, they may have simultainiuosly saved and killed true gaming at the same time. oh shutup ron...
I've been a PC Gamer for a while now, but when I played consoles I was a PS guy. When MGS4 was released I finally decided to pick up a console, and went for the MGS4 bundle so I could have backwards compat. for my old ps games. Inside of one month, my unit had to be rma'd due to a faulty blu-ray drive. This was not a fluke occurrence; after doing several searches online I found there have been a number of people who have experienced this same exact problem (regardless of sku), yet it never gained the epic publicity that MS has for RRoD and disc scratch problems.
Fanboys or not, you have to admit that quality in manufacturing is practically a thing of the past, regardless of brand. Get your gear out to market and sell it as fast as you can, worry about fixing it later. Same seems to go for a lot of games these days as well.
Another thing that might shock u I am a fan of Sony but have been waiting for all these hardware issues to go away so I can get a Xbox these types of things are the only things holdin me back from getting one Id love to get my hands on Gears 2 and fable 2 and some of the other great exclusives but until these issues die down or get fixed I wont be purchasing one only time will tell I guess.
Honestly guys with all bias aside the xbox hardware is faulty in many aspects and Microsoft decided to put it out on the market anyways, many reports conclude this from RROD to scratched discs you guys do know that this is like the 3rd lawsuit pending against them right ? Can any of you Xbox owners honestly say that they didnt realease faulty hardware ? They had to know at least about RROD before launch companies do vigorous testing in all conditions b4 realeasing products so tell me a possible 30% failure rate didnt come up on the radar. Why shouldnt this company be held responsible for its actions when they duped the consumer into believing they were getting a reliable and finished gaming machine when in fact they werent . If Sony pulled a stunt like that frankly Id switch my prefrences and expect compensation for my loss be it money, games or time.
@Ryda
I think in some regards MS knew there were some issues with the hardware and released it with the intent of fixing them as quickly as they could. They didn't have time to fix it prior to the launch so they went ahead and released it anyway hoping the problem wouldn't cost them too much in the end. It turned out that many 360s were dying, enough to make headlines. They eventually came out with not only a 1 year free warranty for everything, but extended that to 3 years for RRoD only. I think you're right that they knowingly released hardware that was faulty to a higher degree than the industry average of 3-5%. I think they released it knowing there'd be a pretty good percentage of owners burnt by that.
I think the problem is all but gone now, from what I read and from the fact that I hardly know anyone that has had one break in a very long time (plenty of them have, trust me, it’s just been a while since it’s happened). I think that we're letting this linger on much longer than it needs to be.
The only part I disagree with is that they haven't taken responsibility for it. They've gone above and beyond to make sure that you can get a new box without having to even pay for shipping. Maybe they didn't come out and say, "Hey, we knew they were screwed up, but we figured we'd fix them and then everyone will be happy again." But I think they've done enough to make up for it. A lot of people never had their Xbox break, and those of us that have were given new Xboxes that didn't break (of course there were people that had multiple RRoDs and I'm sure they were annoyed, but in the end probably 90% of people got their boxes fixed with little to no headache and are enjoying RRoD-free gaming now).
I'm not sure how old you are Ryda, but if you were into gaming during the PS1 and earlier parts of PS2, you would remember that they were notorious for breaking. People had to play their PS1 with it upside down or vertical (when it wasn't supposed to go vertical) to get it to work. Many people I knew had purchased 2, 3, 4 playstations because they kept breaking (with only the standard 90 day warranty mind you). And I'm sure the problem with the PS1s and 2s breaking were exaggerated to a degree just like RRoD is. Sony had a similar problem with those machines but offered no free extended warranty like MS has. So, in a way they have pulled something like that, just a without offering a warranty to go along with their faulty hardware. But because it (PS1/2) was so popular and was the system of choice over the N64/Sega Saturn/Dreamcast/Gamecube/Xbox 1 that people really had no choice but to buy another one.
Anyone else remember the upside down PS1 days? I can't be the only one.
I had to replace both my PS1 and PS2, each within two years of purchase so just long enough to have no guarantee to save the day, and my remaining PS1 now only works upside down, they were still great consoles and i don't regret my purchase, but i hardly think Sony can be held up as some sort of paragon of virtue!
I only remember the upside down PS1 thing when they switched to the slim PS1.
I owned a launch PS1 never had a problem with it other than stupid teenage user issues, (I had a game shark that plugged into the large port in the back and I took it out without shutting the PS1 down. Fried the motherboard)
I got a PS2 in 2003. Still own it and have never had an issue with it. I use it as my primary dvd player. I have it sitting horizontally. Nothing ever happened to it.
I know many people who have owned launch 360s that have never had a problem. I also know many people who have bought 360s in the last year that have RRoD on them. What I don't know are people who have had this scratch issue, yet it doesn't surprise me.
Yes the 360 was shipped to soon. Yes they could have QA'ed it more. But they were bleeding money on the original XBox that they had to get a new console out. Had they waited, I don't think they would have survived as long as they have. But with this new found success, the follow up to the 360 will be a much better machine.
I dont think all Microsoft hardware is crap. The 360 just has a lot of issues, it is a pain in the ass wondering when its doing to die etc etc. But I think with the new chip sets that have come in over the last year or so it should at least remove the red lights issue.
“Remove discs before moving the console or tilting it between the horizontal and vertical positions.”
Hmm, my Wii manual said to keep it away from moisture , therefore according to you - if I took it into the shower ,it's Nintendo's fault if it breaks!?!?!?
M'kay ....... :roll
It's not just moving it. Having it on it's side so it's veritcal isn't good. It's not good for any drive and that is a recommended position for the 360.
Forgetting the fact it's not wise to have drives on their side, the fact it's vertical makes it taller with a narrow less sturdy base. That's just asking for all sorts of trouble.
I see your point, keeping it vertical used to worry me - which is why it's always horizontal now.
Better to be safe than sorry I suppose!
The fact that MS knew about this as far back as October 2005 makes this article even more shocking.
I'm just waiting for the inevitable:
Jasper units RROD
Headline to hit the net.
I personally have never had a disc scratched by my 360, and although a large number of my friends also own 360s i've only ever known one person who suffered from disk scratching, his is a very early Xenon machine so i suspect it is something to do with the first drives used by M$.
To my knowledge there have been four drives (correct me if i'm wrong) used so far, Phillips, Toshiba-Samsung, Hitachi-LG and Lite-On so it would be interesting to see which drive is the one causing the problem. If anyone has any personal experience of this maybe they could post what drive they have.
I'll never understand these idiots who defend a firm for putting out bum hardware.
Personally, i don't reward a company with my hard earned for unreliable hardware. Why would anyone?
I personally have never had a disc scratched by my 360
__________
Obviously you're the expection to the rule. As this article proves.
Even if every claim of a scratched disk was due to a faulty console, and not due to user error or carelessness, that still puts the problem at about 1 in 450 given the numbers involved, so how does that make me the exception?
You PS3 fanboys really should think through your arguments, as this type of ranting really only serves to undermine your case. Besides, i think you'll find us 360 owners are very happy with our choice of console, if the same is true for you then why do you feel the need to post negative comments on every 360 thread?
Only one person out of my 50-100+ live friends over the last 3 years have said anything about scratched discs. His copy of Halo got shredded, but that also was shortly before his drive took a dump (unfortunately it was over a year after puchase, and since no red lights, he was SOL). I don't think the scratched disc problem was a real big one and it was fixed rather quickly (much quicker than the RRoD problem was fixed).
Microsoft has received more than 55,000 complaints about scratched discs as of April this year.
You don't have 55,000 friends though. A lot of those units would have been Falcon models. MS = EPIC FAIL.
This is one of many reasons i don't buy MS hardware. The hardware sucks!
I guess you never heard about the massive battery recall from Sony? At least the 360 has never caused serious injury to customers...
You'll have to find some other excuse for your hatred of MS, Rider, because Sony has a much longer track record of quality problems and law suits they have lost, so that can't be the reason you won't buy MS hardware.
I 2nd that.
I'll second that.
I'll third it.
Wow! The well known PS3 fanboys don't like the 360, i'm stunned, how unlike them to slag off M$!
It's nothing to do with fanboyism. The hardware is just unreliable crap. FACT.
AVA its called denial its the first step to recovery though so your on the right track.
Looking at it another way, Rydamgw, what does it say about Sony's performance this generation when consumers still choose 360 2:1 over the PS3 despite all these hardware issues? It's a sad testament to how atrocious Sony's performance has been that they've still lost 40% market share despite RROD.
It's not like the quality problems have not been well reported, so consumers are obviously balancing all of the factors (price/quality/features/game library) and deciding the good still outweighs the bad. I'm wondering what intangible element makes the SDF (Sony Defense Force) hate 360 with such a passion, since so many other consumers have obviously decided the diminishing risk of RROD is not a deal breaker. I have all the systems and base my preference (360) on actual experience.
PS3 would already have been abandoned by now if not for RROD, as this must have had at least some adverse impact on 360 market share (they probably all bought Wii's), so you should probably be grateful for MS' quality struggles! :)
I love how ppl praise Microsoft and continually defend them even though they know that the Xbox is truly a broken piece of hardware, 55,000 complaints as of April this year but no word on if the problem is being fixed or resolved my brother just had his xbox do this to 3 of his games and the crapbox never moved these problems alone show why the PS3 is by far a better machine yeah 360s software is excellent but its also important to have somthing reliable to play it on which is not the case for Xbox. You wouldn't buy a car you knew could blow a gasket or was known for blowing gaskets would you ? Electronic devices should last longer than 6 months so why is Xbox so special ?
55,000 complaints may sound like a lot until you consider the fact that there were nearly 20 MILLION 360's in the market at that time with an attach rate of nearly 7 (so roughly 140 million discs played on 360's). If there were 20 million PS3's on the market with a comparable attach rate you would likely have a similar number of people complaining about scratched discs.
There are at least 55K idiots out of every 20 million people who would move, or bump into, their consoles while playing them. ;)
There's no doubt the 360 has suffered from quality issues relating to RROD, but his particular case is just a money grab by greedy lawyers without merit.
On the right track???? You bet!
I can spot a troll a mile off, and no matter how much they huff + puff it'll never phase me!
Luckily for me we have all consoles here at home, so I don't need a lecture thanks.
I'm a fan of good games , I'm not so much bothered about which console they're on.
I'm far more likely to believe what I see, rather then what I read off a forum , esp when your post has a 'console x is soooo much better then console y' vibe.
I know a lot of people who have x360's and a few of them have had rrod issues in the past, but none have had a chewed up disc problem - nor have I.
I've had my x360 since launch, which is a lot longer than 6months btw , seems pretty reliable to me!
Is does state clearly in the owners manual - not to move your console whilst the disc is spinning ( and not to leave a game disc in when moving the console - even when switched off) , furthermore Microsoft have gone some length to avoid such occurances ( like the split sockets halfway along joypad connection wires.)
Truth is it defies common sense to want to move/ shake/ dance with your console (regardless of format) whilst the disc is spinning at high speeds.
If I were to 'dragon punch' my Wii or Ps3 during play then what?
I have a feeling this is another attempt at a smear campaign ( conveniently just before Christmas -) , and I do recall people saying the same about the original xbox, to put people off buying them.
There's no doubt there was a problem with the rrod, but I'm pretty sure that situation was blown out of proportion.
There's nothing to stop anyone from posting forums with wildy accusing claims - regardless of whether they own that particular console or not. And it's kind of sad and desperate that people have to sink so low to try to get 'one over' a rival brand.
I know one person who did have the rrod once (I was there) but more recently insisted on it being several times whilst trying to impress friends, I know another guy, who was on the verge of sending back his console - until I pointed out that the rrod has 3 lights, not 4 (- he simply had not plugged in his av cable - duhhhhh!).
So when I hear claims of having gone through 14 + consoles - it makes me wonder how much is bias, how much is for attention, and how much is due to the incabability of the owner to actually look at the manual and follow the guidelines.
Microsoft haven't done anything wrong - in regards of the so-called disc scratching problem.
And as for the the rrod - I think the extended warranty and free fix/replacement service more then makes up for it.
I still get the feeling this thread is going to be a troll-fest !
(Speaking of which I should check out Gamecentral - (teletext) to see what kind of muck they're flinging over this :P)
I can't help but agree with you on all accounts. Why is the scratched disc thing being brought up now? This is old news. As I said in another post, I've personally only heard of one confirmed disc scratch, it was over a year after he had it, and it was when his drive failed. I too have had a 360 since launch (3 actually) and not one of them ever scratched a disc (one of them did get RRoD, got the replacement one in 18 days for free).
I've just read the actual pdf and it looks rather lame.
Essentially they claim, the x360 is defective, MS knew and didn't do anything to counter that, + it's reaping profits by getting customers to buy the game again.
But the claims form actually contradicts itself - by going on to point out all the measures MS has in place.
I for one was fully aware of the warning about moving the console - the warning sticker is kinda hard to miss + the manual makes it perfectly clear.
Hence I've never had a problem - although, I don't think I've ever had a reason to pick up/ move any console whilst playing.
What I would like to know is who made the claim, and why now? ( like you said, it's old news.)
I only did Law for a year, but even I think this is a pretty lousy case, and it was made public - most likely for obvious reasons.
It's the same with the CNN story on the PS3, I just don't get why some people have to be so bitter.
If I were MS, I'd firstly gather a petition of owners who'd agree they were fully aware of the warning,
-highlight the console's design - which proves efforts were made to restrict movement - stuff like the break away cables/wireless pads etc ,
-I'd test the effects of movement on rival consoles,
-+ I'd go into detail about the game replacement service - which has been in place since day one - showing actual figures of complaints and how they were dealt with, costs lost by MS for customer benefit etc
Then I would counter-sue for the projected sales losses over the holiday period - hee hee!
I have 2 360's and have bought well over 100 retail games (discs) without a single one scratching. Not a single of my friends (on and offline) have had disc scratching issues. If you're stupid enough to move any console while there's a disc in it you're getting what you deserve.
Typical American jurispridence - lawyers in search of a case against a big corporation hoping for the big out of court settlement to line their wallets at no benefit to the supposed aggrieved consumers who don't see anything.
There have been many reports of disc eating being done WITHOUT moving the console.
Face it, the hardware build quality is horrible and for some reason gamers want to put up with it. They even go out to purchase a secondary console while they wait for the original to be fixed. I find that funny because they would not dare do such a thing for any other electronic device or piece of software. I find it sad that this sector of consumers are not holding the company responsible. They just continue to take it and support it by buying even more defective products.
Hmmmm, I'm not sure I agree.
My friend had the rrod - he recieved the return label via email after talking to customer services, then U.P.S (?) picked it up within 3hrs. He had his fixed console back eight days later - all for free .
Which is pretty good service, in my opinion.
I've never heard of anyone incapable of waiting for a week - and buying a second console, that's just silly!
As for disc eating, without moving your console . I'll believe it when I see it.
If a person accidentally damages a game by moving the console - and doesn't want to shell out for a replacement, which excuse are they going to use when talking to their parents/customer services :
either - " yes the game was scratched when I knocked the console over " or " I don't know, the console did it itself - now give me a free replacement?"
Thank you but your single experience does not represent the community as a whole. This issue has been known since the launch of the console. Although the article in question mentions moving the console, many have reported this happening WITHOUT moving the console. Microsoft even fails to put bumpers in the system to prevent disc scratching, even if the console is moved. This so simple addition is prevalent in many other disc based devices.
The legal article in question highlights the main cause as the high rpm of the drive - not the lack of bumpers - (that's just one of a few means that could have reduced the likelihood of it happening) - and the article itself states the cause of scratching is caused by the movement of the console.
So the whole concept of discs being magically scratched without movement isn't even part of the proceedings and has nothing to do with the figures stated.
Which means I'll just have to take your word for it ( which I'm sure is sooo accurate.)
There are reports - what reports??? Off forum's??? You mean off a ' troll infested - I can change my username, write whatever I want and expect people to believe it' forums.
That's hardly fact.
Yesterday on CVG forums - people were going on about God of War 3 supposedly coming to the pc - (example.) Do you believe that ? No? Then how can you instantly believe other such claims?
Is it because it gives you the opportunity to put other consoles down?
I know lots of people with 360's and none of which have had this so-called problem , so your assuming everyone but me has this problem is wrong.
Nor do a few isolated incidents 'represent the the community as a whole.'
If you'd take a look at the big picture, you'd might want to ask who's filing the claim and why now? The last I heard of this news was around console launch - mainly with the pre-launch demopods - if the problem was so pronounced we would have heard more about it - like the rrod.
When you unpack a 360, it has a warning sticker over the disk drive - telling you just that - you can't miss it. Furthermore the manual tells you the same.
If the owner is incapable of taking care of his console he can't expect it to work so well.
On top of that MS have always had a customer service specifically for replacing damaged discs.
The legal document is flimsy and I seriously doubt will hold up in court, (read it - it contradicts itself several times) it's been made public - at this time of year specifically to scare people away from buying an x360. You'd have to be blind not to see it.
Y'know this legal claim is really no different to what CNN were going on about the PS3 , it's all b.s.
Ironicaly I doubt either manufacturer had any involvement - it's the work of bitter fanboyism.
Now kindly quit trollin'!
I think the problem was some kind of little soft piece of whatever that's supposed to go between the underside of the disc to support it and that little piece wasn't in there initially. I didn't read the article so they may have said that already. People were getting the scratches without moving it yes, but this problem has been fixed for a long time, why bring it up now?
edit: I think the amount quoted was 55k complaints? That's like only .001% of the 360s out there. Pretty good (considering).
I've heard people say similar things about the RRoD issue. I guess you think that's imaginary too?
No disc drive should be on its side, imo, and it was dumb for MS to make it so the 360 could be played on its side.
Even PS2 owners had issues with the PS2 played on its side. It's just dumb.
It gets worse and worse. I still can't bring myself to use my barge pole....
I hope they lose big time over this. Releasing half-assed hardware or software shouldn't be tolerated so I hope MS learns to keep their PC gaming mentality out of console gaming.